Transcript of podcast episode, with Muskan Nagpal
Podcast episode length: 30:16
Cate: Welcome everyone to this edition of Career Talk. My name is Cate Linforth, I am the International Employer Liaison Officer here at Careers Network, and I am very excited because today we are joined by a recent graduate, Muskan Nagpal. Hello, Muskan, how are you?
Muskan: Hi, Cate, I’m good. I’m very excited to be here. Thank you for having me.
Cate: Thank you for joining. Before we get started, can you tell us a little bit about yourself in terms of where you're from, what you studied at University of Birmingham, and what you're up to now?
Muskan: I am an international student from India. I came here last October, and I was doing my masters in maths. It's a long name, it's Postgraduate Taught in Mathematics, Operations, Research, Statistics, and Econometrics but the actual name we use here is MORSE. I have recently graduated; I just submitted my dissertation a couple of days ago. Now, I’m just waiting to start my graduate job. I already have one lined up, and I’ll be starting after I get my graduate visa.
Cate: Lovely, and is that here in the UK?
Muskan: Yeah, I’ll be working here in the UK. I start in November as soon as I get my visa, so that’s exciting.
Cate: That's very exciting. If we take a step back in time a little bit, I want to talk a little bit about your time at Birmingham, and your time during your postgraduate studies. When you came to University of Birmingham, did you know what you wanted to do for a career after your studies?
Muskan: I think students from India would traditionally relate to this. My family had told me that the perfect job for you would be in the finance sector, because it pays well, it’s the traditional sector, if you're not doing engineering or medicine, then finance and business and all of those roles are good for you. And to be honest, I had that in the back of my mind, because you know, you've been conditioned to think like that. I was looking on roles in the finance sector, and I did not know that there was other, there was scope broader than that, that I could be looking at.
It's also a nice thing, because now the job that I've got is not in a finance-based company. So, that's interesting. I only realised after coming to the UK and interacting with the services that we have here in the University that there are more avenues available for myself than I just thought there were to be.
Cate: It's really common though, and I think we start our career journey when we're in school, way before we start University, way before we make any of these decisions. We start making those decisions when we look at what we're specializing in, and when we have careers talks when we're teenagers, and a lot of them are about what do you want to be? Or even when we're small children and people say, what do you want to be when you grow up and we think about very broad career areas. We think about a doctor or a lawyer or an engineer. That's fine, and those careers are good careers to have. But what we don't realise, and I think a lot of times until we get quite far into our university degree, is it's not apparent that actually, the jobs that most people have, especially in the UK aren’t those careers. Most of them are jobs that we've never heard of, and I think, especially going forward where we talk about the future world of work. We're preparing students now for jobs that don't exist yet. You'll find this when you start work as well, your job will change and technology changes. I’m sure within five or ten years, not only will you have advanced and will be doing something different, but the world of work is changing. It's tricky to expect people to know what they want to do and to stick with it, and it's very okay to change that. It's okay to change your mind. It's okay to explore your options.
You mentioned a little bit about how you didn't really realise some of the other career paths that were available until you started engaging with the services. How did you find out about the role that you've gone for, but also some of the other opportunities that were available?
Muskan: First of all, I agree with what you said. As children, we are very imaginative and creative, but that is also very restrictive to what we've been taught, and what we've been conditioned to believe. It's only after we get to do something or get to know about something that we realise, there's more to this, there are more options for me.
Coming back to what you were asking. I realised that there were more options available for me after I engaged with Careers Network. I think my first meeting was when my professor from the School of Mathematics informed us about an employer's fair happening in the School of Mathematics, and that was my first engagement in any event in the University. I came late to the UK, and I was settling in, obviously it was taking me a while to settle in. The first interaction with Careers Network during that event was what led me to know that there were many opportunities that I could be availing benefits of. I did not exactly get into that immediately after. But that was the point where I first got to know, okay, these are the things that I can be doing.
Cate: You have options.
Muskan: Yeah, I have options.
It was only after, I think, a month or two that I actually got into the phase of actively doing things. But yes, that's how I got to know about most of the opportunities that I applied to, and how I prepared for them. Yeah, most of the other things of the application process.
Cate: Tell me a little bit about how you got involved with Careers Network, in terms of what type of events did you go to, did you make appointments with your Careers Advisor? Did any of that help shape your decision making, and also shape the success that you had in in the application and stages?
Muskan: The events that I attended the most were employer events and career fairs. I think the thing that benefited me the most was Careers Network’s Mentoring Scheme. I was part of the LGBTQ Mentoring Scheme, and I had the most wonderful mentor one could ever have. He prepared me throughout the application stages, and I hadn’t started applying just yet. It was before I would start applying for the jobs that I wanted. He taught me how I could prepare, what the companies wanted, what the interviewers were looking for from an internal perspective, how to prepare for assessment centres, because that was a completely new concept for me. I wasn't even aware of what assessment centres were. I used to think of them as a mock job setting, which is true, but it's different how things work here in the UK. So, interacting with my mentor was really helpful.
I had one on one appointments with my career's advisor. I had just finished my first semester exams. That was also a time where I was looking to, becoming a little bit self-sufficient. I was looking at part time, jobs and everything. So, I tried talking to the careers advisors about how I could go about that. How I could find a part-time job and balance learning skills at the same time. I think those were the services that really helped me navigate my way through.
Cate: You made a really good point about assessment centres in there, and that the recruitment and selection process in the UK is very different to a lot of other countries, as it should be, because the economy is different and the job market is different and the expectations of a work environment. The work culture is different in every country, so not everywhere has assessment centres, and those that do they can be a little bit different as well. We've actually done a podcast on assessments centres for that reason, because like you, I'd never been through an assessment centre, and I've been in work for a long time now. I learned so much in that alone, just learning about how they work, what employers look for, breaking down some of those misconceptions and helping you to be able to prepare.
So, things like that are really useful, because if you go into a blind, you have less of a chance of success than if you can prepare for it. It's the same with anything. But I think that's where it sounds like you had such a good mentor as well, who really was able to advise and guide. Mentors are good in that respect, because they don't work for the university, they're not related to your personal life, they're not family members, they don't have a vested interest in the same way in your decision making. They just are able to offer really impartial advice. I think there's a lot to be said for that impersonal advice.
Tell me a little bit more. You mentioned that you did part-time work, and I think this is one of the things that I was really excited to talk to you about, because part-time work can be so valuable in terms of helping your CV, but also helping get extra cash while you're studying, meeting new people. There are lots of benefits to part-time work. What part-time work have you had since you've been here?
Muskan: I think you're absolutely right, especially for international students. It's very important to balance their life in many so ways, because we have come from a different country to a foreign land, and we are trying to adjust culturally, we are trying to balance our academics, and we also have to balance the finances, because, just the cost of living is completely different from the countries that we're coming from. Almost all of the students, international students particularly go for part time jobs. When I came here, I came here in October last year. Obviously, after settling down in my academics, and after my first semester exams I was also looking at part-time jobs, just so I could be a little more self-sufficient, and not ask my parents to send me money every month. I think I got to know about part-time student work available in the University through a friend who was already working in the University.
Previously, just like any other international student, my go-to idea was to look for jobs outside the university because you can conveniently find them. Saying that, it's not that getting a job in the University was inconvenient. I think that has been the smoothest process of a job application, and interviewing and everything that I have ever experienced. But it's that misconception that you have that coming from a foreign country it's difficult to get a job in the university because of a lot of issues, for example, there might be language barriers, or you might have this apprehension that you might not know things that might be required on the job. So, you don't end up applying for it, and so it's easier to find a job working in a café or waiting.
I did experience that for one day. I applied for a job in one of the cafes in city centre, and I ended up getting it, and I spent one day there. I was waiting at tables, talking to people, taking orders and doing everything, and I realised, and I worked there only for five hours, that was not even my complete shift. It was just like a trial shift, I realised, that is so taxing. I do not have the mental or physical energy after coming back to do any kind of work from the University that I was supposed to. I do not have the energy to even think about taking my notes out and going through what I had done the previous day in my lectures.
I think that made me realise that I should probably be looking for opportunities that are more convenient for me. And so, I went on Worklink which one of my friends had suggested, and I looked at the available roles that were there, and I applied for jobs that I thought I would be fit for. That's how I ended getting my first position in the University. I was working in the Telecoms Department as an administrator, and it was a lovely couple of months. The team that I was working with was amazing, and I got to learn so much. The primary benefit, obviously because we were working in the university, as international students we are allowed to work twenty hours according to the government guidelines. But the University understands that we have academics to balance. So, they have a limit of fifteen hours a week working that we are allowed to do.
Cate: I think that's really important as well, because one thing that might be a misconception is that your employer will always monitor to make sure that you're not going over your allotted hours. I think sometimes when you work outside of the University, if you work in the city centre, in a cafe somewhere, they won't necessarily be aware of the government restrictions, and they won't necessarily police that for you to make sure that you're working twenty hours a week only.
Additionally, even if you say it, sometimes you might get pressure to work more. There is not this understanding that it's a hard deadline of twenty hours, and it's twenty hours per week, not on average, twenty hours, and I think that's really important. It ends up being quite a stressful task to work on the administration of making sure that you're compliant with your visa. I guess one of the main benefits of working through Worklink, not only it's on campus, and I think that's super handy, but you know that you're not going to go over your hours, and they won't let you go over your hours. It kind of takes away one element of stress. And then, additionally, like you say, they acknowledge that you have to balance your studies as well. There is that understanding. So, you're working through Worklink right now with careers and all of our departments are working towards the same goal of supporting our student population. So, it would be a false economy if we then were expecting you to prioritize working for us, and not be able to complete your studies. I do think that there's this understanding that if you have urgent work for your degree programme or if there is stuff that you have to do, there's a little bit of extra flexibility that you wouldn't necessarily get outside of the university. Would you agree with that?
Muskan: Absolutely. I have seen one of my very close friends who's working in a restaurant. She's working at the cash desk, and I have seen her struggle so much because she has to do over time, and she has to go and be present on the shift whenever her manager calls, and sometimes when she's free on a day, and she wants to cover a shift, she's not allowed because the manager doesn't need her on that day. And on other days, when she has some important lectures to attend, or maybe she has an important deadline coming up, she has to go on and attend her shift while doing her work, because there is no option.
But opposite to that, if you're working in the university, it's much more convenient. I've experienced that myself. In my previous role as well, I had some important deadlines for my assignments coming up, and my line manager allowed me to leave early, focus on my work, get my academics sorted. Even right now, in my current role as well, I had my dissertation meetings and deadlines coming up, and I was allowed to compensate for that, and work on my academics first, because that's the priority for every student in the university.
Cate: I think it's also important, not every private or external part-time role will be like that. But it is something that international students, in particular, need to be really mindful of, because on top of the juggling of your courses, on top of the everything else that home students would also have to go through, you do need to be mindful that your studies come first, but also that you're visa compliant. I think that Worklink just help make it a bit easier.
And on top of that, there's such a variety of what you can do. We've got lots of hospitality outlets on campus, so there are opportunities to work in cafes if a student wanted to do that. But there's also opportunities to do things that help bolster your CV in a different way that are maybe more in line with what you want to do after your studies, and give you some more office-based skills.
You mentioned that you worked in telecommunications. I also mentioned that you're currently working in Careers Network. What other roles have you had through Worklink?
Muskan: I have currently had three roles through Worklink. The first one was for the telecoms. The second one was working with the University facilitated nursery, so I was working as a child care, support worker. And the third one is the one that I’m currently doing with Careers Network. I think, like you said, it gives you a lot of the experience that will be beneficial to you when you're working in towards your career eventually, which I think is so important.
I remember when I was starting to apply for part time jobs, and I hadn't even considered working in the University, one of my friends had said well it's fine if you want to work outside in a restaurant, or a cafe, or a warehouse, or any other external agency, but you have to think, if you’re working in a café, apart from communication, what other skills are you getting that you can put on your CV? As opposed to that, if you are working in the University, you will not only get the name that you have worked in the University, which is a reputable fact in itself, but also you can get skills that are far more valuable than working in any externally place, like a cafe or a restaurant, or anywhere. And I’m not saying that it doesn't give you skills. Obviously, you learn time management when you're working in places like those, you learn communication, you learn how to balance stress, because you're always doing so many things at the same time. But I think relatively working in the University has helped me gain those transferable skills in a far better way than I would have ever imagined working in any other place.
Cate: I think that's a really good point, and I think for a lot of international students and a lot of international post-grad students, in particular, or just post-grad students in general, some of the traditional internship opportunities aren't necessarily possible, because if there is, for instance, a summer internship that's full time, that wouldn't necessarily work for you because you're still doing your course of studies, you still have your visa restriction so you can't work full time during the summer. There are a lot of, not barriers, but there are some extra challenges for international postgraduate students, or just international students, or just post-grad students for getting some work experience on your CV.
It's really important to note that having a part time job is a really worthwhile way to enhance your CV in a different way outside of the traditional internship method, because the internships aren't always feasible, or the ones that you want, the opportunities aren't always there, or the timeline doesn't match up, or it's not conducive with your studies, because your studies do need to come first, especially when you're on a master's course, and you are here for such a short time. It's kind of all systems go. You need to make the most of your time. But also, if you can get a part-time role that helps you with some of those skills, gives you a lot of enhancement to your resume to your CV, that helps. In the same way that societies help and participating in some of the consultancy challenges or boot camps. All of these are things that, it's not a dead end if you don't have an internship, it's not a dead end if you don't have work experience in the company that you want to apply for. Obviously those are huge benefits, and they're great, but lots of students are successful with part-time work on their CVs. Lots of students are successful with society involvement on their CV. There are lots of other ways to get that enhancement and develop those skills and showcase them. I think then, when you couple that part-time work with meeting with your careers adviser, or going to some of the workshops we have with Careers Network to help you showcase that experience best on your CV, then you're on to a really good combination, and that's how you can make the most of your time.
How did you find communicating your part-time work on your CV? Did you have any help with tailoring your CV to really showcase what you've gotten through your part-time work or through your society involvement?
Muskan: Absolutely. I agree with you, and I think it's very important to get yourself actively involved in events or societies or part time jobs like that. Obviously, like you said, it's great if you have an internship experience in a company that you want to work for. But if you don't, and if you have experiences from activities like these, they are still more valuable, because at the end of the day, eventually, when you get to that point where you're interviewing for the company that you want to work for, you have the skills that you need to display to. I think to answer the question you asked, displaying the skills that I developed through my society involvement. I was also a part of the University of Birmingham Investment Society, from the society work that I had done, and through the part I work that I had been doing, I had a rough idea of what skill I needed to present on my CV. But I think, like I said earlier, the job market here in the UK is completely different. What they expect of you is more often than not in alignment with what we have in our minds that they might be expecting.
I think going back to what I had said, my mentor helped me do that a lot. I had prepared a rough draft of my resume, and I added the skills that I wanted to put in the experience that I had been doing with the university. And then he told me, this point displays this skill, and you should be actively promoting that because you have that. It's as simple as, for example, if you're talking about adaptability. Every company wants a person who is adaptive, because changing times, they have the challenges, and if you're interviewing and you don't have to have like a big example. ‘Oh, I worked for this big company and I faced this big challenge’. As little as you are an international student, and you come from a different country, and you've settled into a different company, you’re navigating your way through a different culture. That shows adaptability.
Cate: That's such a huge point. And there are so many things that I think sometimes international students in particular, and I've been there myself, worry that because of our visa restrictions on work, or because of the fact that we were spending time adjusting to a different culture and a different style of learning and living in a different country, and all of the things, different languages and things. Sometimes as international students, you think, oh, well, maybe I don't have those skills, or I haven't had a chance to really focus on my career preparation and showcase those skills. But what international students have, just right out of the gates when they first get here, they have that adaptability, and they have that resilience. The fact that you move to a different country, not knowing anyone, and are not only focusing on your studies but doing all of these other things as well, on top of language challenges, style of learning, all the things I mentioned before. That showcases those skills, and that in and of itself is a huge example. Sometimes better than one instance in a workplace. The fact that you lived that for a long time is I think some of the best examples that you can give of those skills. But I think, as a service, Careers Network can help you, or your mentor, or anyone. We have a lot of different opportunities to get some advice and get someone to just have a look at your CV or help give examples on how you can showcase those skills, because I think sometimes students don't realise that they already have a lot of these skills. It's just about how you frame it and how you promote yourself. I think, in the job process that's half the battle at least.
I’m just conscious of our time. I’ve really enjoyed hearing about part-time work, and how it can enhance your job prospects and your C. If you had to give students, current students or students who are just coming to the University this year, some advice on how they can make the most of their time at Birmingham, or the time in the UK. Whether it's academic advice or careers-related or just personal advice. What would you say to students?
Muskan: I think to international students, I would like to say that you don't have to feel intimidated when you come here. There are lots of resources for your help available, for your careers help, for your personal help, for your academic help, and you can go to any one of them, and everybody is just willing to help you resolve those issues. Especially when it comes to careers, because that's the main motive of international students coming here in the UK. They want to have a career that they want to start their journey with.
I think they're innumerable resources available. There's resume checker websites available. There's obviously like I mentioned mentoring scheme. There are part time roles. You cannot just work with Worklink through University, but also there are roles available, such as PGT ambassadors where you get to interact with different students and organize events, if that's what you think you're good at, and that's also invaluable experience. You can work at the guild of students. There are so many roles available there. I think it’s just about making the most of the opportunities you have. The sooner you realise it, the more you'll be able to actively engage and get the most experience out of it. So, I think my advice would be just don't feel intimidated. Head start. Get into it.
Cate: Just get stuck in. It's such a valid point, though. Sometimes the fear of failing stops people from trying at all. At the University especially, I can speak on behalf of careers, our job is literally to support and help in any way that we can. So, I think there's no need to be intimidated, because everyone has a different experience coming into university. So, we have things for people who are still exploring, things for that career planning stage. And things for students who are ready to apply. We’ve got something for everyone and a lot of things for each of those. It's just about trying and if something doesn't work for you right, you've learned, if it does work for you, fantastic, even better. And if you're not sure, you usually hear about one or two other things to try. Even if you just try one thing a month, it's not very little output and maxim benefit, I think. So, that's great advice.
Muskan, thank you much for your time. It's been really nice having you on the podcast, best of luck for your graduate role.
Muskan: Thank you very much for having me. It was very nice to speak to you.