Transcript of podcast episode, with Kerry Brunn from the B-Enterprising team
Podcast episode length: 32:43
Cate: Welcome everyone to Career Talk. My name is Cate Linforth. I am the International Employer Liaison officer here at Careers Network. And I'm really excited because today we are talking all things international student visas and I'm really excited because we are joined by Kerry Brunn from our B-Enterprising team. Welcome Kerry.
Kerry: Thanks for having me.
Cate: Thanks for joining us. Do you want to tell us a little bit about what you do within the B-Eenterprising team? We've talked a little bit on previous episodes about kind of generally what the B-Enterprising team do and kind of all of the initiatives. But what do you specifically do, I guess, around visas and supporting international students?
Kerry: Yeah. So my role’s really varied, supporting both undergrads and grads, predominantly supporting students who have an interest in enterprise and entrepreneurship with a particular focus on start-up. And one of my main roles is managing the Start-Up visa which we’re going to talk about today. But I also support our students with things like programs, funding, workshops and also co-managing The Exchange, which is our incubation space at The Exchange. And I'll elaborate a little bit more on that because we've got some start-up visa students at the moment.
Cate: So anything to do with students who are looking at starting their own venture or international students who want to stay and start their own business, you are kind of going to be one of their key people that they'll see and liaise with and go to for support and advice. And so I'm sure you're a friendly face to a lot of international students who are looking at going down this route.
Kerry: Yeah, I have a lot of interest from our international students and some obviously because of the visa restrictions that that there is limitations on how international students can get involved unfortunately, but all of our what some programs and events are open to our international students with just limited funding until they have got either the start up via or other visa options that enable them to start a business.
Cate: Okay. So and then with regard to the start-up visa, my understanding is that obviously we need students will need a sponsor on that and the University of Birmingham has that sponsorship capability. What does that mean for the visa process? What does that mean for students who are looking to go down that route? What kind of is the process?
Kerry: So the university is given 20 endorsements a year, 20 Start-Up endorsements, we don't support the innovator route. And what that means is actually we don't manage the start up visa. As such, the Home Office manages that. What we do is endorse the business side of it, and that means that we then evaluate the business and the applicant and once they’ve gone thorugh all the processes which we can talk about in detail they are then provided with an endorsement letter which backs up their visa application, which they then make direct to the Home Office.
Cate: So we effectively say that their business is viable and that is it's legitimate and that we have vetted it to make sure that it's not a front, if you will, and that it is an actual business plan and it does have kind of legs?
Kerry: Yeah, it's a very rigorous process for the start up visa and like the graduate route visa which I can touch on a little bit, all businesses have to be validated as innovative, viable and scalable. And we do that business plan with minimise business plan and everything’s set out there for you. So it's really easy to understand and almost come to providing you with information to provide a really thorough answer by looking at 50% within each area. Okay. So that steps in on the marketing, your customers, your finance as an individual and that sort of thing. And then if you pass the application stage, you're then invited for an interview and we have an independent panel that join us for that part of it. And that that's not a Dragon’s Den process – we’re not looking to catch our students out we’re looking to support them. So really it’s to build on your application it's to talk to the panel and then hopefully make an informed judgement on whether you are the right person to be endorsed.
Cate And that interview process, the application and interview process, while it isn’t kind of a Dragon’s Den, it does still give students who are looking to start their own businesses really valuable experience in terms of learning how to start pitching and learning how to speak to people, potential investors or potential supporters or clients about their business idea. So the process in and of itself falls within that skills development, and it's a really worthwhile process because I would imagine anyone, whether they are successful in obtaining a start up visa or not, or if they go a different route, if they're planning on starting up their own business, they need to be able to confidently talk about their idea and be enthusiastic and passionate and be able to answer questions from people about kind of the logistics and the intention behind it. So am I right in thinking that the process of going through that endorsement in and of itself, even if a student isn't successful in getting a visa later on, is still a very worthwhile process.
Kerry: Very worthwhile and very valid and it's actually the foundations you know it’s a beginning. I say the beginning however, when you come to this process in your third / final year, whatever your final year is, this shouldn't be something that you undertake at that point in time. This is, you know, we are looking for students that have had an interest in this probably since before they joined university, but definitely over their undergrad years. We will take we would be expecting them to be involved in our workshops in that they have a Start-Up program coming to our events and trying to find out and understand as much as they can about entrepreneurship start-up and also playing around with their idea. So although there are limitations as I explained, you're not allowed to start trading, you're not allowed to incorporate your business. You're not allowed to do things within reason and market research and your predicted finances and understanding the sector and all of that, that you're going to operate in and really with those students that are doing that over the years are really going to be in the best space and really be credible when they when they make this application.
Cate: And a lot of that information can be gained in you know, you mentioned other B-Enterprising activities. We've spoken about boot camps on here before. And I think a lot of that information can come from - we've had guests on here before who have participated in a three day boot camp and come up with a really viable business plan. And, you know, you go through the marketing, you get access to different software and some of them, and it's a really great way to develop that skill. So if you've got an idea but don't really know how to, we're not expecting you to just have a ready-made business, but you need to have thought about it and at least try to get those skills and try to kind of go through the motions and seek support from the B-Enterprising team. Am I right in thinking that when a student applies for the start up visa endorsement from us, that shouldn't really be the first time that we're hearing from that student. We would expect that students to be kind of known to you and known to the programs that we offer.
Kerry: Absolutely. I mean, sometimes of all of international students have been out there. And, you know, they haven’t intereacted or engaged with us, but they have really engaged in other ways, they know what they're going to do. They come to us running and they are successful. But most of the time we see that those students that have been through our boot camps some programs that come to our Start-Up program that’ve had 1:1 business advice session that has attended the start up visa workshop that I deliver, you know, those are the students we see coming through that really really, prepared, really know they're stuff, really motivated. They've done all of there and those are the ones that, you know, convince the panel that they've got something to take forward and just, you know, to point out with the panel or anyone, nobody knows whether that business is going to be successful, even you know, the most successful entrepreneurs in the world cannot guarantee that an idea is going to turn into a successful venture. And that's not what we're looking for. You know, we're not sitting there in judgement of whether your idea is a good one, and it would be successful in those terms. It's whether you can prove that you've done the work to show that it is viable and it is scalable.
Cate: Whether you've done that research and whether you've thought about the process and actually what needs to happen to give that opportunity the best shot at success.
Kerry Absolutely. And a lot of the time is about you as the individual. Yeah. As much as it is about your idea. Lots of ideas are not always the most innovative in terms of way out there kind of high tech sort of ideas. Sometimes it just might be that you've spotted a gap in the market and you're putting your twist on it and you know you've created something that's innovative to address that gap, whatever that might be. Product or service. And so that's what we'll be looking for. It hasn't got to be a new invention or a new branded innovation that's always what it’s about.
Cate: And so if an individual comes to the start up visa process and they're not quite at that position yet where we're able to endorse them. What options are there for international students who still want to start their own business or still want to explore their own ideas, but maybe haven't quite ticked all of the boxes for requirements of the Start-Up visa because it is quite a rigorous process.
Kerry: And actually there's a few options. So just to say that the start up visa isn't your only option. However, we do allow graduates to apply up to five years after graduation. So what that means is actually you might go back toy your home country and gain some work experience and work on your business in your home country or you may stay here on a different visa. Is the graduate route visa that we’ve had around now for a couple of years. That's not something that our team manages. That's managed by the international student team, and that process is not as rigorous as the start up visa. So there is no interview process for that. And as I says, we don't manage that. What the visa allows you to do is work in the UK, but also be self employed, which means basically you can start a business.
Cate: So with that graduate route visa, that is a follow on from the post study work visa, which was which became defunct in 2011 and it was reintroduced within the last 2 to 3 years during the pandemic. And we've seen a big influx of international students coming to the UK on the back of that because just having that opportunity to stay in the UK and gain work is a huge opportunity for students who are interested in exploring their options. You don't you know, you don't necessarily have to have job offers aplenty, you don't have to have a contract signed. It gives you an opportunity to stay for up to two years and get work experience as long as you meet the conditions. And the international student team are really well versed on all things graduate route visa, they run fortnightly graduate route visa workshops. So any students who are listening to this, who think that might be an option for them if you head to the university’s website and we'll probably link to it from this podcast, the international student team kind of have lots of resources about that visa. That's not something that we would be able to advise on in Careers Network. But what we can do is kind of tell you if you might have what it takes for a Start-Up visa or if you might need to look at other options.
Kerry: And I think what it does offer is flexibility in the type of business that you can start. So whereas the start-up visa we are looking for businesses that are kind of more innovative, scalable and viable, the graduate route visa would enable you to start a business that might be around your own beauty salon, owning your own food establishment, decorating business. I don't know. It just gives you that flexibility and those options, I should say, to explore and get a feel for it. However on the flip side of that, it does that mean that you can't transition into a Start-Up visa and that is a negative potentially for some students, but not for all. You've really got to weigh up all of the options and decide what's going to work for the journey that you envision.
Cate: And I think it's really important for students to know that before they start down either or any of the options, any of the paths, because the last thing you want is to get to a position where your plans change and maybe you do want to stay and you suddenly don't have that opportunity because of previous choices that you've made.
Kerry: And I think what I normally do with my students, I'm not a visa adviser, so I’m not legally allowed to give advice, but what I can do is talk through the options with our students. What we've been doing of late since the graduate route visa became an option, was sit down to map out the journey that you think you want to take and then bring in the start up visa process and the graduate route process and what you can do with those and so basically list the pros and cons. And if you go this route, what will that enable you to do? What will that prevent you from doing? And vice-versa. And then from that then you can make an informed decision about the journey that that you're going to take. And actually, if it doesn't work out, you know, things don't always work out with business as we know, there are other options that you can pivot from that then, none of it is a waste of time. It’s all valuable skills learned, it's a viable route.
Cate: And I think that's a really important point, is that none of this is nothing is finite. There's always there are always other options. And although something might seem like a setback, there's always another path to take or another option to explore. And, you know, there are very few times where it's actually the end of your options and everything that you've done in the lead up to that. It's not a waste of time because there are opportunities. And if students do find themselves in that situation, they can come back to Careers Network for support from us after they graduate. We're here to support them and kind of help them explore those options that are available to them. And I think you made a really good point when you said about, you know, the visa appointments, whilst you can't give visa advice, what you can do is present really insightful questions of things that students might want to consider when they're looking at making these decisions. And it's really nice for students just to have a sounding board of someone who understands each path, that offers things that they might want to consider. One of the things that really resonated with me, was you said that some students so students are able to apply for the start up visa up to five years after their studies. And we've actually had a student on here who returned to her home country, then applied for the start up visa and came back. And Sarah Nantume is one of those kind of with her colleagues at Maize one of those stories. And now they worked with you on that Start-Up visa process. Can you tell me a little bit more about what options are for students who find themselves in a position where they need to go home? Whether it's because they're not quite at a position to apply for the start up visa or their plans might change. How do you support students from overseas who are then looking at their options to come back?
Kerry: So we had one Hope who had got a job and decided that she wanted to come back, and it's a really easy process to apply from your home country because you can still make your application online. And at the moment we are still conducting our start up visa interviews online because we have such a mixture of students applying from their home country and from those that recently graduated from the UK. So again with technology now it’s so easy to do a Zoom interview. Everybody's very comfortable with that students at least we can accommodate time zones from there. We produced that endorsement letter you send it off from your home country and then once you’re awarded your visa, you make your way to the UK. It’s as easy as that.
Cate: And that's just fantastic. So they find themselves in a position where they need to go home for whatever reason. Sometimes students feel as though that's the end of their options and they can’t come back. But that's clearly not the case with regard to Start-Up visas, there are also opportunities that we haven't talked about that are kind of outside all of these visas, where if students do decide that they want to try and work in the UK or elsewhere and they return to their home country, there are always options if you work for a multinational corporation to get an internal transfer. We've had plenty of students who ended up returning to their home country and then working in the UK after a few years’ work experience in their home country. So I guess the overarching message that I would have for students is that there are options and lots of options depending on what you think you want to do, what skills you have, what stage in your life you're at, or what your commitments might be, or what kind of what you need to prioritise at any given time. That doesn't mean that other things can't change down the line for you. With the Start-Up visa, can students only apply for endorsement once? For instance, say if a student applies and doesn't quite meet the requirements with us in their final year at university, could they apply the following year?
Kerry: Yeah. So this would differ from institution to institution. But at the University of Birmingham, our process is our policy is that we really want to support and enable our international students to be successful, if that’s the route that they want to go. So if they make an application and they don't reach the 50% in each area, we will give them feedback on where they haven't met the criteria and help them to think about where they can build on that, where they can go out and find out more. And again, with the interview process, we can also give feedback. They can meet somebody from the panel, have a chat have a conversation and find out about where the gaps were to enable them again to go out and do that extra work. And to point out as well that they don’t have to make that application the following year either, they've got that five year window. So if you know they've got the basis of a good idea but it needs more work like well, you know, they just need more time, getting some work experience then they can go away and they can come back two years later. And we've actually got students that have done that. There’s lots of opportunities. And also, you know, we have lots of different ways that we can support our international students. So in the incubator at the moment, we have students that have gone through the start up visa, have not been successful with us, but have been endorsed by another institution, who have different policies and different processes, but they made a successful application to the incubator and so they are part of that program. And then we have students that have gone down the graduate route, and we've also accepted some of them onto the incubator program. And then we've got some of our international students that are on the Start-Up visa. So as you can see, there's lots of different ways that we support our international students both with sort of the incubator but on campus as well.
Cate: A little bit about the incubator because it's a relatively new space and kind of program that we offer at the university. And I think it's really interesting. Could you just give us a whistle stop tour of what our incubator is, what it does, and what it's made up of?
Kerry: So it is very new still. We are just kicking off our second year our second cohort. We have got 39 businesses at the moment that are operating out of there. It is a physical space at The Exchange, which is a University of Birmingham owned space in Birmingham City Centre. And what we provide is lots of support, through mentorship, coaching, workshops, events and sort of that community support which we're actually finding is one of our strengths. The community and the support – the business to business support – that these guys provide is kind of like instrumental to their success.
Cate: I suppose if you've got one start-up that is kind of really hot on the marketing side of things, and so they've got a lot of experience and innovation when it comes to the marketing side, and they've really nailed their marketing aspect. And then another one who's might be really good at research, innovation or experiences that you’d rather other people not experience is fine, and learn from the mistakes.
Kerry: We see that happen. We see collaborations because there are different aspects of different businesses that come together nicely and can really support and enable each other. So it’s a really really positive space and I think one of the high tech super shiny businesses we are a really encompassing space and we’re seeing all sorts of businesses from mental health, to board games, to international students helping to relocate international students. There's all sorts of variety in there and I think that is a real is our unique selling point actuall.
Cate: The University of Birmingham can give and our B-Enterprising team can give, but to have a physical office space and physical presence in the city centre is huge as well and is a great opportunity for new businesses that are just starting up who maybe wouldn't otherwise have the opportunity to have that proximity to kind of the established businesses in the city. And you know, as we all know, Birmingham as a city is really evolving and growing in terms of the businesses that are coming and that are basing their headquarters or their or at least the UK headquarters in Birmingham is really growing in that respect. So it is a great time for start-ups to be based in Birmingham as well. There's a lot of resource and it's a young city as well in terms of the population and I think that in and of itself kind of brings in some more innovations as well. So I want to recap a little bit about start-ups. So if a student is considering going down this route, they've got an idea and they've sought support and they've been to some of the workshops, maybe they've participated in a bootcamp. What time of year do they need to be putting in their application for start up visa support and endorsement?
Kerry: So one thing to note is it's never too soon to start working on that application form. So just because you're in your first year and you're not going to graduate til year 3 or 4 whatever your course, it doesn't mean that you shouldn't be looking on our website, looking up what the processes are reading through the application form and starting to work through it now because as I said, it's like a mini business plan so it is giving you that information that you need to know in order to get those foundations in place. So as soon as possible, if you've got an idea and you want to take it forward and you want to operate that in the UK, the sooner the better really, because that is going to enable you to make a real strong application and again really convince the panel that you’re the right person to do that. In terms of sort of the actual process and we try at the moment we do this twice a year and we try to do it to fit around the times where.
Cate: So then students have opportunities to apply kind of ahead of their current visa expiring and they can get that. It can be a smooth transition if they are successful down that road.
Kerry: So the endorsement letters are only valid for three months and that is a Home Office regulation. Which means that if you are a masters student and you’re graduating in December, there's no point you applying in June July because we produce that letter it wouldn't be valid then. And one of the requirements of the visa is that you can produce evidence that you've graduated from, passed your course.
Cate: But what you can do is say you kind of want to know if you would get through when you can what you can do is you can seek kind of advice and guidance from the team. You can have visa appointments. You can work with the team to ensure that when you do submit an application, you know you're prepared and you've got everything ready.
Kerry: We could work with you, we could never guarantee. No, obviously. Yeah, but absolutely we would work with you to ensure that you're at that level where you think would satisfy the panel. The reason why we keep it an independent panel is so that we are always sort of neutral and, you know, we want the absolute best here, but we need to be transparent and we need to evidence to the Home Office that we've gone through this robust system, which is why we use the independent panel. But we can absolutely through the workshops that I deliver, 1 to 1 meetings that I can have, 1 to 1 business advice sessions that you can have with our advisers, all of that then can really stand you in a good position to make a really robust application. Not only that, you've got the access to our community as well and the access to the peers, access to other international students that've been through this process, that you can go and talk to that you can learn from that you can use as a sounding board, that you can share ideas from, that you can begin collaborations with. So all of this, you know, you don't want to be doing this a couple of months before the application deadline. You want to be involved and you want to be experiencing it and committed to it as early on as possible.
Cate: So that you're as ready as possible when that time comes to make that application and have that interview. And I think it's really important to note that as a as an institution and as a team, we take our visa sponsorship incredibly seriously. It's you know, it's a huge privilege that as an institution, we're able to endorse these businesses. And that's why the kind of criteria that are set by the Home Office are not something that we can be flexible on because we can't risk kind of jeopardising our sponsorship license and our and kind of what that would mean for all start-ups that we’ve sponsored. Because that then has a kind of whole compliance issue with the Home Office and auditing and everything.
Kerry: But, but what I would say is I know sometimes it can be disappointing, but actually what we're trying to do is enable these students to survive here. And business is so difficult anyway but to be sometimes in a country on your own without your family and friends, vulnerable, English might not be your first language you've got no means of earning an income. We are not going to endorse and leave you out on a limb. Yeah. So it’s our responsibility, we want to support you and enable you. And so we've got to make those decisions and ensure that you are in the right place to do that. But if an applicant isn't successful, we will support you with mentorship after with feedback, you can still access one-to-ones and also the start up visa isn’t the be all and end all - there are lots of other visa options that, you know, we touched on lightly earlier, but other endorsing bodies may have different processes and you can try them. That's the innovator route that we don’t have a license for but other endorsing bodies do. There is the global talent visa and the graduate route visa that doesn't have such a robust application. So it really isn't the end of the world and it doesn't mean that that's the end of your Start-Up journey with us either.
Cate: And I think that's kind of one of the overarching messages that we promote within careers really generally but it really rings true with this and that’s do your research, explore all of your options and be as prepared as possible. So try as many things out as possible. See what works for you. Try to get as much insight and intel so that the decisions that you make can be as informed as possible and give you the best chance for the success that you want. Because everybody's version of success in their mind is different. And everyone’s journey will be really different. And it doesn't matter how it compares against other people. It matters on what works for you as an individual. So I guess any final message that I would have for students would be make sure you go to the International Student Team’s visa workshops, make sure you look at the B-Enterprising resources that are available, if you're interested in starting up your own business and it's something that you're seriously considering, get involved in the activity that that the B-Enterprising team offer. Involve yourself in boot camps, throw yourself in and start formulating that business plan and kind of those ideas early in your head so that you know that you're giving yourself the best chance of success.
Kerry: Yes, I absolutely agree. And the more involved you get, the more involved you get in the community of enterprise, entrepreneurship, start up, the more chance you are going to have of making a successful start-up. And if it isn't your start up and you go another route, then you know you’ve learned valuable skills. And you've made really good friends.
Cate: Definitely. And I think also just kind of to add on to that is the B-Enterprising team doesn't just engage with existing start-ups as well. We have large organisations, a lot of them multinational corporations with big household names that we work with as well that are able to offer additional start up support as well. So there are lots of opportunities to be innovative and enterprising and whether that ultimately results in you starting your own business or not, those entrepreneurial skills will get you really far in life in general, not just your career, but I think international students have a lot of those skills and they don't necessarily realise it because coming to a new country and kind of putting yourself out there and throwing yourself into an international education setting and all of that takes a lot of skills that we look for, but it's just we can help students kind of articulate those. So I guess my final message would be just do your research on kind of what you're interested in and know the options available to you.
Kerry: Absolutely. Get involved early. Make the most of all of the opportunities. We’re a friendly, approachable bunch. Yeah. And get involved.
Cate: Well, thank you very much, Kerry. It's been really nice talking to you and kind of getting some insight into the differences around the visas, but also what students can do to maximise their opportunities for success. Prepare early. And you know that old saying fail to prepare prepare to fail. You know nothing is the be all and end all. So there are always options.
Kerry: Thank you.
Cate: Thanks for coming on. It's been lovely having you!
Kerry: Bye.