Transcript of podcast episode with alumni guest speaker, Tobi Osogbiye.
Podcast length: 46:11
Cate: Welcome everyone, my name is Cate Linforth. I’m the International Employer Liaison Officer here at Careers Network at the University of Birmingham. Welcome to the most recent episode of Career Talk, I am very delighted to say that today we are joined by Tobi Osogbiye. Welcome Tobi.
Tobi: Hi Cate, thank you very much. That was perfect pronunciation of my name so yes, thank you. I’m very excited to be on this podcast, thanks for having me.
Cate: Thank you so much for joining us today. I’m really in particular excited to hear about you and your career journey and we'll touch on this later, but I think in particularly because of what you did whilst at University of Birmingham and your involvement in the Guild, I think you've got a lot of insight into what students can do to make the most of their time in Birmingham, and in the UK, in general.
Would you mind just giving us a bit of an introduction, tell us a little a little bit about yourself and where you're from, what you studied at University of Birmingham and what you're up to now?
Tobi: Yeah, of course. So context, my background, I’m Nigerian and lived in Nigeria my whole life and then in 2018 I came to the UK to study. So I studied a Master's in International Relations and Diplomacy, but before coming to the UK I already had a degree in French Language. So I came here, started studying, met lots of people, made amazing friends, who I still chat with today miraculously. Along the line I got involved in Guild, “politics”.
I decided to put myself forward as a Postgraduate Officer in 2019, won that one, and then went ahead again to put myself forward, I see the torture of being in the political landscape was not enough, well that's a joke anyway. So I put myself forward to become Guild President so that was also really good, gained a lot of skills, met a lot of people, both in the university within Birmingham and in around the world as well. And after that I got a job working with a charity. The charity I work for is the National Youth Advocacy Service, and I work as the Public Affairs and Engagement Officer. It is a fantastic job, it's a fantastic charity that is set out for a good cause and I’m happy to still expand on this as we move forward in terms of detail of my role and what the charity does, but just a summary of who I am. I am someone who came from Nigeria to pursue a dream and did that in my opinion brilliantly well, albeit challenges were in the way, but here we are.
Cate: I mean the amount that you achieved in a short amount of time whilst studying, I think, is remarkable. I think it's just worth noting as well that when you come to the UK, I was an international student myself when I did my undergraduate and I think when you come to the UK and for your studies or when you go anywhere outside of your home country for your studies, it's more than just studying a new degree program, it's learning to live in a different culture, making new friends, assimilating into maybe a different style of education. I certainly faced that, education style was different and what was expected of me was different. Add that on top to the fact that you were doing a Masters, which is a shorter program, so I think sometimes when you come for an undergraduate you have this protective cushion knowing that you've got three years to get quite a lot done, when you come for a postgraduate programme, you don't have that luxury of time in the same way. So the fact that you just threw yourself in at the deep end and got involved in Guild politics, which is no mean feat as they are very time and resource intensive, is a testament to you, it's a testament to your work ethic, it's a testament to your drive and it's a testament to the experience that you were determined to have as well. So that's highly commendable in itself.
Tobi: Thank you, I think you have perfectly summed up what I experienced when I came to the UK because doing a Master's degree, having like you said, a short amount of time was really difficult for me and that's one of the things I tried my hardest to change when I was a Postgraduate Officer because I wanted, especially international students who are only going to be in the country for like a year, some people try to get job and stay behind like I did, but they couldn't they had to go back home which is not a bad thing it's just we all have different projections right, so I tried to make sure that those who were in the UK had a very good time and didn't feel like they were outsiders, and didn't feel that they were too far away. It’s just really nice to hear that you can also relate, and I like how you summed that up because that just represents exactly how I felt when I first came to the UK.
Cate: It's overwhelming, and I think there's a lot to get to grips with in a really short amount of time, that September, October time in particular when you first, come. I’m sure in your case as well, there was a huge climate difference, not only getting used to that which is a big deal and it's something that a lot of international students talk about. But also, I was going to say the food changes and what foods you expect and what foods you hope to find and we're very lucky that Birmingham is a really multicultural city, but also it doesn't make it easy, it doesn't mean it's automatically easy. I think when we then talk about the things that you've got going on in your studies in that time, plus the, the majority of our activity within the career side of things at university happens within those first few months. Obviously we have activity going on throughout the year, which is really beneficial, but all the career fairs, a lot of the employers coming onto campus, any graduate schemes things like that, will all happen within the Autumn term. So I feel like it's really important for all students and, in particular, postgraduate students and, in particular, all international students to really hit the ground running when they start because I feel like sometimes if you spend too much time getting used to one aspect of the settling in, you end up missing a whole category of things that are happening. So that's one of the things that we're trying to do both with this podcast and just generally is trying to raise awareness of what students can do to help themselves when they come to Birmingham, but we're also here to make the most of their time and in the UK.
When you first came to Birmingham, did you have an idea of what you wanted to do as a career after your studies or were you focused on your education and then thinking about exploring options later, what did you want to do?
Tobi: Oh that's a really good question, and if I’ll be honest it's a mix of answers, because one of the reasons I came because I thought I had something good going on in my country, because I'd already finished my undergraduate I was a full-time singer songwriter performing, that was my bread and butter, that was how I was earning my living. It got to a point where I just hit some stumbling blocks along the line, some were emotional, a lot of them were financial and you know when you're in a familiar environment, but it starts to feel like it’s caving in on you and you just feel so choked. That was how I felt, and that was why my family saw it best for me to change my environment and explore something different. Before then I'd always wanted to do my Master’s, however I wanted to study in France, because I obviously have a French degree, I wanted to do my Master’s in France and pursue something in line of diplomacy. So when the option to study in UK was on the table, I started to research more about the UK, what is it like, then I realised that Birmingham’s actually one of the most multicultural cities, London is also very multicultural but it's too fast pace for me and I thought okay Birmingham is probably the better choice for me. So coming here I didn't have high expectations. I came here, partly because I wanted to disconnect from what I’m already used to, and I just wanted to clear my head and maybe learn something new and see what else the future has for me.
That was one, and on getting here I started to think differently so it wasn't any more about in quotes “the escape”, it was now more about okay so I’m here now, I don't have music, which is always with me anyway. But I couldn’t do music on the visa I came here with because, obviously, as a student you're not allowed to perform or be an entertainer, you need a different visa for that. So I started to think okay what else can I do, and I started to think about my passion for development, my passion for change, my passion for just being generally a solutions enthusiast and I started in the field that I’m in, which is international relations and diplomacy and looking at the fact that in the past I've done a lot of grassroots campaigning, even as a singer, I have done a lot of collaborations with charities to give voices to vulnerable children and young people, vulnerable adults as well. And I thought, actually, apart from music, there is a passion there that has to do with giving back to society, so community engagement, community building. All of these things, and so essentially shape the new future in addition to the one that I had already seen.
So summary I came here with little expectations but being a student at Birmingham and just meeting different people and just being exposed to a lot of other ideologies made me realise that I could also do other things.
Cate: What you said is so poignant about how you always had it within you and whilst you weren't able to focus on music whilst you were over here studying, you looked at what else has always been inside of you, and what else you've always been working on and you've always been passionate about and you've always been involved with. I think that's really important. Some students will come and focus only on their education and that's fine and that's really well within everyone's rights. Everyone has different motives for studying, everyone has different motives for studying abroad, and everyone has different motives for the path that they take, but I think it's really important to look at the bigger picture and looking at the experience as well and like you say you had a perfectly good setup in Nigeria, you were you were making a living, you had opportunities and you had family and you had a degree. But sometimes you just need to change in a bit of a reset and I think it's really important to look at all the different things that your education can give you, not just the degree certificate, but also the life experience a cultural experience.
You talk so modestly about it or so humbly about it, but just the fact that you came over on a 15 month programme and just threw yourself right into community engagement and engagement with the Guild is no small deal.
Tobi: I don't know if that's a function of my personality, because contrary to what people think I’m an introvert and I also consider myself an ambivert so somebody who comes off as extroverted but is actually an introvert. But I think the reason I threw myself into those things and tried to grab as many opportunities as possible is partly because I grew up hearing things like ‘don't just go through university, don't just pass university, allow university to pass through you'. I don't know if that's a saying here but that's something that I heard a lot of times as a young girl in high school and I had a lot of uncles and aunties, people weren't related by blood, but we call them uncles and aunties anyway, and they would tell us whenever they're going to university, you know how they're doing and the things that they were involved in, and they will always say, even my mom said it a lot, she used to say 'don't just go through university, let it go through you’.
So it means don't just be a passer-by, don't just go to classes and like take notes and leave. Be a part of it, create memories, create experiences. It doesn't have to be you going for every extracurricular activity, it could just be as simple as visiting all the new buildings on campus or knowing more about the history of your university. Just being interested, you don't have to try everything, but just having that keen interest, so that you feel like, although you've given a piece of yourself to the university, you feel like you're leaving with something as well. I see myself years from now, if somebody asked me anything about Birmingham as a city, I would automatically think of the University of Birmingham, and I would think about having a lot of memories to pull out of my hat, but if I was just somebody who was only here to study and won't do anything else apart from reading my books (which probably would have been best for me, because then I would have better grades, not that I didn't have good grades). But I probably wouldn't have had enough stories and maybe the only stories that I would have had would have been of the library closing earlier than I expected.
My summary is for anyone listening who doesn't quite know why they are even in university and they just found themselves there, I mean nobody does but at the end of day we ask questions, and if you ever feel like you don't even know your purpose, I think, just take it one step at a time, just explore, just move through it. If you find an opportunity that's interesting, even if you're not you're not that person who grabs your opportunity, just be curious about it, try to find more and try to put yourself out there. If it doesn't work for you, then just move on, but don't just shut yourself off from everything I think would be my advice, if we're giving advice so you don't have to take it, by the way.
Cate: I think that's so that's so beautifully put, and I think that kind of idiom of don't just pass through it, let it pass through you, is really important because I think there's a lot of pressure on university students and there's a lot of pressure to get grades, and to get a good job at the end of it, and I think the career aspect doesn't just come from grades that comes from experience as well. More than anything, I think university is transformative in shaping who you are as an individual and if you let it, the friendships that you make, and the experience that you have are ones that will stay with you and shape what you then go on to do.
All of these new experiences will then help set you off down a path of who you're meant to be and what you actually want to do, because so many students, myself included, would start university with one idea of what they wanted to do as a career or for the rest of their life and by the time you finish university all of those experience that you have has completely changed both your mindset, but also the path that you go down. I think it really helps students can make a more informed decision about what is right for them. And I think it's really beautifully put and that's something that is tricky and I would imagine, certainly for when I’m thinking back to when I was an international student, but from what I hear from a lot of international students is it is really easy to stay in groups of people from your home country or from a similar culture, because it's familiar and it's comfortable and there's nothing wrong with that in some aspect, because you do need that sense of home. You do need that and sense of people that just understand what you're going through. But it is also short sighted to only do that, and I think some of the best, the students that are most successful are the ones that have a wide range of experiences and people that they meet and engage with, and I would imagine that your work with the Guild introduced you to so many different people and lots of different experiences as well.
Can you tell me a little bit about what the role was as the Postgraduate Officer and how you juggled that with your studies as well?
Tobi: Okay, I’ll try to be very succinct. So first year as a sabbatical officer (students who work within the student union), I was a Postgraduate Officer. I did that part time for a couple of weeks, more than a couple of weeks, actually, because it was towards the end of my year as a student, so I had that option to do it alongside my masters, but do it part time until I finish my masters, or and take a year off. So defer the completion of my masters until after I finished my year as a sabbatical officer. The macho woman in me decided yeah I’ll just do it side by side. Bad idea because it stressed me out a lot. I wouldn't really advise anyone to do it alongside their studies, except if they're very, very good at time management which I wasn't very good at that point. I didn't really manage my time properly, so I got very, very stressed.
In terms of the role itself, it was great because I initially decided to put myself forward for International Officer because I felt like international students needed more of a voice on campus and they needed somebody to speak out for them, especially from minority backgrounds, I’m talking about racial backgrounds now. I then decided how about if I just to do Postgraduate Officer instead because I feel like that even covers more, so it covers education as well, so not just your international student identity, but the full experience that you have as a student, your education specifically and that's what the Postgraduate Officer does.
So when I was Postgraduate Officer, a lot of my work was to make sure that postgraduate students were not an afterthought when decisions are being made about and the wellbeing of students, when it comes to education, their social life, opportunities on offer for them, including careers and just a range of things. Because a lot of us, especially masters students are only there for a year, except if it’s part time and we're there longer and, a lot of people were not as well, because most of the officers at that time, and I don't know what it looks like now, were very much tailored to either a younger demographic and or a more involved demographic and that would mostly be undergraduate students or freshers. That means that Masters students who most of them are mature students, by definition mean that they have passed a certain age, I think 25 is the age. A lot of them are professionals, a lot of them have jobs that they're doing, a lot of them have children, and their needs and their wants, their likes and not the same as freshers who have just come out of high school and coming into university. It’s very, very different, and so I tried to articulate that in my relationship with the Guild and my relationship with the university to say these things need to be considered. So every single room that I set foot in, every single board I sat on, be it about wellbeing of students, be about a social life of students, be about just general support, I would always be there to articulate the voices of postgraduate students. In my time at the Guild I tried to make sure that there were regular social activities that postgraduates could attend and feel comfortable and feel like it was well thought out for them.
I kept doing that, trying to also create opportunities for PhD students or researchers to work, I tried to re-establish a good relationship between the Guild and the research community and for the Birmingham PhD community, and I think that went really well. I think that opened more opportunities for conversations to be had, some conversations that had not been had in the past in terms of how students can feel better integrated, celebrating unique identities, rather than forcing or making people blend in. My whole stance was I don't want postgraduate students to blend in. I want them to feel celebrated, I want their individuality and identities and their values and ideals to be respected and celebrated and not just them blending basically.
So that was really good, I had a lot of comments from postgraduate students, I made a lot of good friends and then, when I became President my brief changed slightly, so it wasn't just postgraduate students, it was now 38,000 students at the University of Birmingham. Every room that I set foot in I had to have the hat of how does this affect on the undergraduate students, how does this affect undergraduate international students, how does this affect part time students, how does it affect mature students, what about postgraduate students, what about students with carer responsibilities, what about care leavers? All of these questions I had to ask in the room, and it was never an easy conversation to have because at the end of the day, there are 38,000 students at the University of Birmingham, you cannot possibly make everybody happy. Even if everyone's voice is coming through my mouth at some point but louder, it’s echoing 38,000 students, it's still always a difficult conversation, because it's just not possible to have a perfect one size fit all customer approach to ensuring that everyone has a good student experience. Which is why you have different officers at the Guild, you don't just have the President, you have the Education Officer, you have International Officer, you have somebody who's focused on mental health and wellbeing, sports, activities, all of these things, so that we can be in different places at different times saying the same thing basically, to make sure that students feel represented and students are not just an afterthought and make sure that you get value for their time and their money and that everybody feels respected in that space.
So yeah it was an amazing time for me, because not only did I learn more about the workings of the university, I learned to be more diplomatic, I learned a lot of skills, not just diplomacy, actually, I think, it’s more about relationship management, crisis management, project management, all of these things that really helped me when I was interviewing for jobs, because it felt like I already had access to high level skills and high level engagement that not every student had access to, and that shaped my thinking. Even if I see it as a blessing, it's a curse as well, because I went into the world of work and I can't possibly apply to become a director of a job in my level because I came out of university as a director on the Guild’s board, as a Governor at the university and coming out of that, having that high profile experience and type of engagement and then having to look for jobs and starting to humble myself a lot more to say right, you have the high level notions or experiences, but how do you then try to balance that out, how do you then get the operational experience that you need. Because it was like reverse for me, many people start at the bottom of the food chain and work their way up, but I started from the bottom and I’m having to work my way up again. That's just a snapshot of what it was like at some point, sometimes it was chaotic, at times students were not happy with us and there were times where people were excited and there are times where the relationship with the university and the Guild were a bit strained because we had to agree to disagree. It wasn’t all rosy but it was very insightful and definitely an experience that I am super grateful for that I had the pleasure.
Cate: It makes me exhausted hearing about it. Whenever we meet Guild Officers in our job it's so impressive the amount that you juggle with your studies and then directly after your studies as well, and I think, like you say, you have to have a higher level of diplomacy and you have to be able to engage with key stakeholders from all levels, whether it's new students, prospective students, right through to, I’d imagine, senior colleagues within the university and also within government and around the UK and overseas as well. I would imagine then that transition into looking for work is tricky because you already have so many skills which are beneficial to a workplace environment and which employers are desperate to have and are desperate to foster with recent graduates that they hire. But then it's also an act of balancing the fact that you know you have those skills without trying to come across as too good for any of the jobs that are available at your level. I'd imagine that that’s a tricky balancing act.
Did that you wanted to stay in the UK after your time as Guild President or were you looking at options back in Nigeria or elsewhere?
Tobi: I was looking at options in Nigeria because I wasn't finding good options in the UK. By good options, I mean companies or organisations willing to sponsor my visa, because as an international student you can’t get a job without having a visa sponsor, a tier 2 sponsor. So the fact that I was hitting a lot of stumbling blocks, I would get through to the final stage of an application and get told 'oh your application was great, but we can’t take you at this time because we don't offer sponsorship’. Or I would go for an interview and they'd say ‘oh that was great, but we can’t offer sponsorship’, so it was that constant battle of the back and forth, so I started searching for opportunities back home because I thought ‘well I've had a really good experience, I've had a really good education here and I think I can definitely find something back home’. Albeit, it wouldn’t have been commensurate to the experience that I’ve already had, and I wouldn't have been adequately compensated in my opinion.
So yes, I was definitely looking for jobs in Nigeria, but I was looking more for jobs here because I felt like there were more opportunities for me to progress in my chosen field and network because I'd already tasted two years of that already. I didn't want to have to go back home because all I've ever done at home is music and that's the landscape that I’m familiar with, I didn't want to have to throw myself into the unknown and work my way up from nowhere because it's a system, in my opinion, that is set up for people's failures. There are hardly any jobs and even when there are opportunities, it is always the battle of who you know. So yeah, I was much more focused on finding a job and staying in the UK.
Cate: Did you engage with any of the support available at the university when you were looking for jobs, did you get involved in any of the Careers Network activity, or was it more a case of, you knew what you were looking for and you felt like it was a bit more of a solo journey?
Tobi: Oh, it was a bit of both. I did a lot of research. A lot of reading. A lot of consulting sources online to find something at least. I contacted Careers Network to help me specifically in how to get ready for interviews, checking my CV and things that I should say, or should not say in an interview, just the basics that a lot of us take for granted. I obviously wasn't born here. I wouldn't have known at that point if I didn't seek help from Careers Network, to know how employers here think, the things they are looking for. If it was back in Nigeria, it would be easier for me because I've lived there all my life and I've heard stories, I've seen people who have done interviews. I can always ask someone, and I would know what to do.
But it was a new terrain, it is still a new terrain, and I just felt like I needed help. So, yes Careers Network was very, very helpful. I remember one time, I would actually have like a job opportunity and I would have my cover letter written, I would have my CV tailored to that job opportunity and I remember somebody from Careers Network would go through everything, and asked me some questions and try to see if I thought about certain things, and prompted me to think about some of the things that could be asked and how I could potentially help myself stand out. I received a lot of coaching from the Guild as well, so we had a coach that was assigned to us for personal development. They helped me a lot in getting ready for interviews and jobs and signposting me to sources for information. Colleagues at the Guild were also very, very, very, very helpful.
So it was a good balance, I think, getting a lot of help from the Guild but also Careers Network. I’m still actually still in touch with Careers Network, that’s my only contact point at the moment with the university. Except for the Guild, which is like family.
Cate: You have such a such an interesting story, because you did really hit the ground running and that isn't to say that your journey hasn't been without challenges, but I think you really recognised what those challenges were, and you had the forethought to foresee them and think ‘okay, what do I need to do to overcome this challenge’ and get the help that you needed or engaged with whatever you needed to engage with to overcome that challenge and move on to the next thing. That kind of determination and drive is really important and I think, like you say, with regard to things like CV and interview help, there are certain things that are second nature to students that grew up here and I think, how a CV is laid out for instance in the UK varies compared to other countries. As an international student, in particular, that's something that's really important to seek advice on because a lot of these companies, what some people don't fully appreciate is a lot of these companies will send CVs, they get thousands of them, and they just send them through CV scanning apps and if you don't have the keywords that they expect or if you don't have the layout that they expect, then they have to weed them out somehow. It doesn't feel fair, but there are oftentimes small tweaks that students can make to make their CV more attractive to employers. I think that's where we can really offer a lot of support and a lot of help.
So tell me a little bit about your current role. What does it involve on a day-to-day basis and how have you found that transition into work from studying and then the Guild. I mean you were already working after studying but I guess into how have you found that transition into work post-university phase?
Tobi: It was very smooth for me, because I was already used to a fast paced environment, already used to, dare I say, chaos. Higher Education is no joke! I was already used to digesting high level content, high level workload. So the transition was easy for me because it's a children's rights charity that works to empower and support children and young people, as well as vulnerable adults. At some point when I even started working at the charity, I felt like was too slow for me. I felt like I had a lot of adrenaline and lots of energy that I needed to let out of my system, but it was just too quiet. I probably spoke too soon because just a couple of months after it became chaotic. But not in a bad way anyway, it's just it became very busy, is what I should say.
The transition was very good for me, I had a fantastic manager who is very understanding, very open minded, who just helped me settle in. My colleague, the research assistant within my team (it was a very small team) also helped me settle in really well and the fact that it's a sector that I wasn't 100% familiar with, in terms of children's rights, advocacy, policy and all of those. I did a lot of policy in my role at the Guild but everything was education, higher education policy or everything that just has to do with education. The law that we were looking to pass was the Education Act. Being in this role, I had to do a lot of reading to get familiar with a lot of guidelines and guidance and laws within the space of safeguarding, children's rights, children’s representation, children’s participation and all of that.
In terms of my role, I’m the Public Affairs and Engagement Officer at the charity. In layman terms, part of my job is making sure that the voices of children and young people come through the work that we do at NYAS. Part of my job as well in layman terms, is to connect the charity with key influencers, key stakeholders, politicians for instance, that would help shape the campaign that we run to support children and young people.
So my job is very much youth engagement and participation, making sure that the voices of children are champions in our work, making sure that our campaigns reach the right people and that they effect the change that children want to see. I also try to connect my charity with relevant groups of people, so not just politicians now, so other organisations.
Lately I've been managing a relationship between the charity and an external company who work to support care experienced children and young people. So, if I were to say in a nutshell what my job is, it’s relationship management and connecting my charity to the right people and just making sure that they are heard. Yeah that's the summary.
In terms of what it looks like day to day, I have quite a number of meetings internal and external. Most of my external meetings are with other charities that do similar work with us, and sometimes with politicians, Department for Education DHSE, NHS. Other external meetings I have, this is the external and internal, is the young people that we work with to influence our campaigns, who volunteer to shape our campaigns. So, they come up campaign ideas, we go away to fact check, we do all the legwork, all the data collection. Then bring it back to them and they tell us ‘yeah okay so let's recommend to the government that the government changes this and that’ and we go ‘okay that's feasible, we can do that, we can definitely champion voices’ and we just go ahead and do it.
So very similar to what I did at the Guild. Asking students what issues they're facing and they tell us 'we need a water fountain in the library’, for instance. We go ‘okay, if this is what you want, no problem’. We take it to the university and we make a case and look for the evidence as to why students want a water fountain, for instance, and we just try to get it done. So that's a summary of what I do.
Cate: It sounds like, Tobi, you were made for this role. I think your experiences have led you to a career path like this one, and I think it is highly commendable the work that you're doing, and it sounds like it's incredibly fulfilling as well.
If you could give one piece of advice for prospective or current international students about how they can make the most of their time at Birmingham or just generally in the UK, what they can do, it doesn't have to be career wise, but obviously it's a careers podcast, but what they can do to make the most of their time here - what would it be?
Tobi: I think I would say just go for it. Any opportunity that you find around you or that you see your friends have said ‘oh, this is a nice opportunity’, or ‘Careers Network is advertising something’. Just be curious, try it out. There's no harm in trying, if you're not interested just drop it. I think it's incredibly important, and I know I’m trying to make this as concise as possible, but I would say why it's important.
In my case I decided many things are possible. Even if at that time I was having doubts and I was asking myself ‘why am I putting myself under all of this pressure’, even if it did not make sense at that period of time. When I started to look for jobs and I needed to put my CV together, I needed to say what my experiences have been, especially as an international student who hasn't worked in this country before up until when I became the Sabbatical Officer. All of those that came into play, me joining model NATO, for instance, it came in handy, my role within that came in handy, me being a part of the society, me being the secretary of the society came in handy. All of those experiences, however little. Me volunteering for a charity came in handy. All the skills I've learned. There's no little skill, there's no such thing as a little skill, it would always come in handy and that's why I keep encouraging people to just grab opportunities as they come. Don't be afraid to try out new things. Just try it out basically, that's my advice.
Ask people, ask friends, ask Careers Network, ask your mentors. Just ask as well, it is incredibly important that people are open minded and willing. Even if it's not your personality to be so just still stay curious. I guess you can do that, you can be curious.
Cate: I think that's so important. I read something the other day, and I feel like I come across this phrase really regularly so maybe it's life trying to tell me something, but I think there's an old phrase that ‘you never regret the risks that you take, you on the regret the ones that you don't take, you regret not taking opportunities, you don't regret trying things, you don't regret opportunities that you explored, you regret the ones that you never explored’, so I think that's really, really sound advice.
Tobi, it has been wonderful talking to you. Thank you so much for your time, I really enjoyed our conversation. I feel like I could talk to you for hours. That's probably why we just won't leave you alone at Careers Network.
Tobi: My virtual doors are always open.
Cate: Well, thank you so much. It's been so lovely to talk to you and I really look forward to following your career and seeing the wonderful things that you get up to.
Tobi: Thank you very much.